The Gaming Den

hogarth wrote:

Seerow wrote:I think about a handful of mundane heroes going into an alternate dimension made up of hostile beings to save a friend, and escaping by the skin of their teeth through a combination of luck and wits.

Hold on -- this is a terrible thing to want in your RPGs. If your GM thinks it's cool to require luck in order to survive encounters, then that means that you'll end up losing most of the time (when your luck is poor-to-average).

Sorry, I was being intentionally quick and vague there. One of the three characters in question has literally supernatural levels of luck, to the point where any time random chance is involved, he wins. At one point he throws up about 1000 coins with every one coming up heads just to make a point. He makes enough money to fund a personal army just by gambling.

So when I say he makes it through by luck, it's not "I rolled a natural 20!" it's "I use my luck pool to say I win here"

NineInchNall wrote:I'm not sure which books you're talking about where nothing happened. Even the book that had the worst fan reaction, The Path of Daggers, had its fair share of important events and big action scenes.

Honestly even as a fan of the series Wheel of Time is at minimum 4 books too long, and you could tell the same story in 10 or less books without losing anything. While only Crossroads of Twilight is completely devoid of plot progression pretty much all of book 6 and onward only ever seem to advance the plot in the last hundred pages.

Lord Mistborn wrote: Honestly even as a fan of the series Wheel of Time is at minimum 4 books too long, and you could tell the same story in 10 or less books without losing anything.

That I can agree with.

NineInchNall wrote:

Lord Mistborn wrote: Honestly even as a fan of the series Wheel of Time is at minimum 4 books too long, and you could tell the same story in 10 or less books without losing anything.

That I can agree with.

I'd even go so far as to say you could get it all into 6 or 8. I don't think anyone has ever said Wheel of Time is lacking in fluff that could be cut.

The only real argument is against people who vehemently insist that you could cut 95% of the series and even remaining 5% is crap.

Seerow wrote:

NineInchNall wrote:

Lord Mistborn wrote: Honestly even as a fan of the series Wheel of Time is at minimum 4 books too long, and you could tell the same story in 10 or less books without losing anything.

That I can agree with.

I'd even go so far as to say you could get it all into 6 or 8. I don't think anyone has ever said Wheel of Time is lacking in fluff that could be cut.

The only real argument is against people who vehemently insist that you could cut 95% of the series and even remaining 5% is crap.

Well, there was definitely some fat to be cut (isn't there always?) but I actually wished the series was longer. Sanderson didn't have time to develop some of the interesting themes and character arcs that were left open and available to him, and I'd have loved to see the prequels and sequels that Jordan was thinking about.

(It probably helps that I read pretty fast so my reaction to most novels is that they were way too short).

On the female characters: the series puts a lot of effort into building a world where men and women are genuinely and non-euphemistically equal in power but in separate spheres. It doesn't always _work_, but it's usually _interesting_. And he lets his female characters have certain traits and flaws that normally aren't allowed to female protagonists because that would make them "bitchy." And, I mean, some of them are bitchy. But none of them are as bitchy as Mat.

jadagul... your brain is broken.

I read quickly and used to appreciate long books just because they could last for a whole day. WoT broke me of that.

Being a speedy reader had gotten me through a lot of stinkers, that was no saving grace for WoT once it was past about 6 books in. After I plow through 200+ pages of nothing happening and the characters I enjoyed turning into tiresome mockeries of their formerly cool selves, it gets too much. One by one the characters became boring or irritating. I quit the series when Mat was the last character that I cared about and he started becoming annoying as well (I think around book 10?). All of the capital the series had built up was long since spent and I wasn't going to ride it down to the bottom of the well.

I considered returning to the series when Sanderson came aboard but decided I couldn't bear re-reading to get back into it.

Okay first of all, that NineInchNall guy saying "Path fo Daggers" got the worst fan reaction surely has no idea what he is talking about. "Crossroads of Twilight" is by far the most hated book and quite possibly the worst fantasy novel of all time. It makes "Path of Daggers" look like a masterpiece in comparison, which is incredible given that "Path of Daggers" also blows dirty anus.

jadagul wrote:Well, there was definitely some fat to be cut (isn't there always?) but I actually wished the series was longer.

Uh yeah you should probably check yourself into a mental institution.

And while it might be hard to believe for someone who faps to Wheel of Time every night, there are actually some books that are so awesome you would be an idiot to cut anything!

On the female characters: the series puts a lot of effort into building a world where men and women are genuinely and non-euphemistically equal in power but in separate spheres. It doesn't always _work_, but it's usually _interesting_. And he lets his female characters have certain traits and flaws that normally aren't allowed to female protagonists because that would make them "bitchy." And, I mean, some of them are bitchy. But none of them are as bitchy as Mat.

Give me a break.

It's never interesting and it never works.

Yes indeed, basically all protagonists of Wheel of Time are whiny petulant bitches, whether they are male or female. I mean, Rand is probably the lamest fucking hero of an epic fantasy series I have ever seen. And Mat too is a whiny little bitch. Seriously, fuck those losers. Oh yeah Perrin is also a tool.

But the female characters get like 75% of the total overall screentime for the entire series, while idiots like Rand seriously show up for like two chapters in books that are 1000 pages long. So having the women be unbearably unlikable is a much more serious problem.

It's just a complete failure of writing and character development. Fantasy story protagonist chicks should be awesome and lovable. Had Egwene or Nynaeve been more like Sailor Moon or Lina Inverse, then Wheel of Time would have earned a D-- (that's "D-minus-minus") instead of an F.

People should read some Conan and watch some fucking ANIME isntead.

People should watch some fucking ANIME isntead.

And welcome to the ignore list

Seerow wrote:

People should watch some fucking ANIME isntead.

And welcome to the ignore list

I am confused why this would cause you to add ISP to an ignore list. Double confused because you should have never read it, because he should have been on your ignore list at the very latest when he starting trolling the board.

Yah. I'm extra confused. I have ISP on ignore from something so long ago that I don't even remember, clicked to read, found 0% that I disagreed with. Well, maybe 1% since a wee bit is hyperbole, there are worse fantasy heroes, but those books don't have the rabid following that WoT does (except maybe the Sword of Truth crap, that's a worse fantasy "hero" and apparently sells some paper), and I will grant that WoT started out fairly strong, it just choked itself with glut until I could give no further damns.

[edit: I forgot about Sword of Truth, but DSM's mention of the sadomasochist nuns reminded me]

Hey. The Dungeon Master basic rules PDF on the WotC site seems more like a Monster book basic rules pdf.

It seems to mostly consist of animals, which is weird.

I think the most powerful monster in the pdf is the Adult Red Dragon.

It has a Strength of 27, giving him a +8 bonus for Strength.

It cannot break down a door with a mastercraft lock (DC 30).

This game sucks dicks.

Cats also have monster stats!

Cat
Tiny beast, unaligned
Armor Class 12
Hit Points 2 (1d4)
Speed 40 ft., climb 30 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
3 (−4) 15 (+2) 10 (+0) 3 (−4) 12 (+1) 7 (−2)
Skills Perception +3, Stealth +4
Senses passive Perception 13
Languages —
Challenge 0 (10 XP)
Keen Smell. The cat has advantage on Wisdom (Perception)
checks that rely on smell.
Actions
Claws. Melee Weapon Attack: +0 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target.
Hit: 1 slashing damage.

I find it offensive that you can just go around slaughtering cats and get 10 xp for each one.

I, too, would recommend anime to Wheel of Time. Even if you have a fetish for magical sadomasochist nuns. Especially if you have a fetish for magical sadomasochist nuns.

Yes, just anime. Pick something at random, it doesn't matter. Even if it sucks, suckage weighted by time investment will still be way better.

infected slut princess wrote:Hey. The Dungeon Master basic rules PDF on the WotC site seems more like a Monster book basic rules pdf.

It seems to mostly consist of animals, which is weird.

I think the most powerful monster in the pdf is the Adult Red Dragon.

It has a Strength of 27, giving him a +8 bonus for Strength.

It cannot break down a door with a mastercraft lock (DC 30).

This game sucks dicks.

I think they just wouldn't admit to themselves how much they would have to compress DCs in order for the bounded accuracy system tow ork.

If you don't like anime you are a racist.

OgreBattle wrote:If you don't like anime you are a racist.

If you like anime you are a pedophile.

Wheel of Time starts out with cool female characters, but by book 6 or so, there's 10 or more Aes Sedai, and they're all the same fucking person.

DSMatticus wrote:I, too, would recommend anime to Wheel of Time. Even if you have a fetish for magical sadomasochist nuns. Especially if you have a fetish for magical sadomasochist nuns.

And if you want magical sadomasochist nuns without the anime, there is always Dune.

rasmuswagner wrote:Wheel of Time starts out with cool female characters, but by book 6 or so, there's 10 or more Aes Sedai, and they're all the same fucking person.

I think the rot sets in before the end of book 1, to be quite honest. Though it does admittedly get a lot worse as the series progresses. While there are things to like about WoT, the female characters and portrayal of romance/etc in it are decidedly not one of those things.

Sanderson's ending books were better than Jordan's efforts on the whole. However, I'd recommend just skipping the entire series in favour of one of the *many* better fantasy series out there.

Having long ago tortured myself by reading WoT (up through Crossroads of Twilight, I believe), and having read the first few books of Sword of Truth (like, the first four) before I just got too damn bored...what good fantasy series are out there? I've read LotR, of course, and I love it. But those are basically the only things that immediately spring to mind when I think High Fantasy Epic. Well, that and the Sword of Shannara, which I have been warned away from. So. What else is out and available, and most importantly, good?

Hadanelith wrote:So. What else is out and available, and most importantly, good?

Dragonlance.

No, seriously. Dragonlance.

I enjoy the Stormlight Archives, as well as the Dresden Files if you include Urban Fantasy.

The Stormlord Trilogy.

Game On,
fbmf

Hadanelith wrote:Having long ago tortured myself by reading WoT (up through Crossroads of Twilight, I believe), and having read the first few books of Sword of Truth (like, the first four) before I just got too damn bored...what good fantasy series are out there? I've read LotR, of course, and I love it. But those are basically the only things that immediately spring to mind when I think High Fantasy Epic. Well, that and the Sword of Shannara, which I have been warned away from. So. What else is out and available, and most importantly, good?

David Eddings wrote two decent series

The Belgariad series is twelve books in all (Belgariad, Malloreon, two more).

Then there's the Elenium, which is pretty damn good, and its sequel the Tamuli, which is where David Eddings started going downhill.

I second the Dresden Files. If you don't include High Fantasy, there's Terry Pratchett's Discworld.

If you haven't read Lord of Light, do so. And the Chronicles of Amber. Because Zelazny is aweseome. As far as high fantasy series, I'd recommend Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn and the Coldfire series (both trilogies, more or less).

Guy Gavriel Kay's Fionavar Tapestry is his closest to standard high fantasy, but I'd also recommend his historical fantasy novels. The Sarantine Mosaic set it not-Byzantium and Under Heaven/River of Stars set in not-8th/12th century China are really worth reading.

I'm also a fan of Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos novels. The series isn't finished, but most of them are pretty self-contained, and they jump around the timeline a fair bit. If you've read Dumas, you also might want to read Brust's other series in the same world, where he writes in a satire of Dumas' style.

virgil: As far as Jim Butcher goes, I suspect that Codex Alera would be a closer match, both for being high fantasy (albeit not-Roman instead of not-medieval) and for being finished.